This is in regards to a recent billboard:
People think we atheists are attacking Christmas and calling it a myth and such. We're not. Christmas is very much real. The birth of Jesus is not.Apparently, my first missile has been launched here. My mother decided to respond, and one thing I admire about my mother is that although we are on opposite ends of the spectrum regarding spiritual beliefs, we can actually have civilized discussion about such things. We always do after every show I'm on.
She responded to the post with this:
Must say that I disagree; I believe the birth of Jesus is VERY REAL. I think what you meant to say is that atheists do not "believe" the birth of Jesus is real. Just as many believers do not have "proof" that Jesus was in fact a man that lived, I don't think an atheist has "proof" that he was not. While I totally respect your opinions, please be careful how you choose your words so that you don't "offend" the opinions of others. ;)Facebook is not really the place to be having long debates about this kind of thing, so that's why I'm moving it to my blog, where there is more of a personal forum.
Well, not really a personal forum, just a place for me to go to the furthest extent of my pedantry, I suppose.
I think what you meant to say is that atheists do not "believe" the birth of Jesus is real.No, I meant to say what I meant to say. Some atheists do believe that the birth of Jesus was an event that happened, because it has nothing to do with belief in a god.
However, a lot can be said about this alleged event. Even the birth of this legend is quite similar to the story of Mithra, a Zoroastrian god-man that predates the Jesus story by about 600 years; Mithra himself was born of a virgin on December 25th, and like Jesus, had 12 disciples and was called “the way, the truth, and the light”, amongst other similarities.
Just as many believers do not have "proof" that Jesus was in fact a man that lived, I don't think an atheist has "proof" that he was not.My mother usually has the very good reasoning and logic, but unfortunately this falls flat. The burden of proof isn’t on the one rejecting the claim, and it isn’t possible to prove a negative. I don’t have to provide proof that there is not a ceramic teapot orbiting Neptune.
While I totally respect your opinions, please be careful how you choose your words so that you don't "offend" the opinions of others.At this point is where I will launch my final salvo.
I’m not going to water down my words to prevent somebody from being offended. I am a full-fledged advocate of free speech and the idea that nobody has the right to not be offended (including myself… freedom of speech is far more important than my own comfort). It is ethical to respect you as a person if you have earned it, but it is not mandatory that therefore I must respect your ideas and opinions. These things are not sentient; they do not have feelings, and not only should they be subject to scrutiny by others, but also by the person that holds them. I, along with the other hosts of the radio show, may seem brash and abrasive at times, but it’s only towards the absurd claims that people make regarding their religious beliefs. If you don’t want to be ridiculed, refrain from saying ridiculous things that ostensibly have no basis in reality.
Take a look at the billboard that was recently installed at the end of the Lincoln Tunnel in NYC:
Now I’m sure most of you reading this will regard this as in-your-face and aggressive. How is this any more aggressive than a billboard that reads “When you die, you will go to hell unless you believe in God”? (And yes, that was an actual billboard here in RI for a little while over in Cranston.) This billboard is nothing more than a tool for stating the obvious.
…unless you mean to tell me that a gigantic star led some old wise men to a manger in which a baby, who was the son of a god and was conceived without the act of sexual reproduction, on the night of December 25th.
Look at the billboard again. Is this a European depiction of Jesus as an adult? Heck, can you see Jesus anywhere in the picture? I sure can’t, even in that manger. The most pronounced features of the billboard are the three men on camels, the star, the ass, and maybe the palm trees if you’re that observant. But another focal point is the word “KNOW”. Knowledge is something that’s practical and supported by good evidence. It’s not something you take on “faith” or unjustified belief.
Some atheists celebrate Christmas. Some don’t… some have a Festivus for the rest of us. Some, who are Jewish by tradition, actually might celebrate Hanukkah instead. Christmas, in the way it is celebrated these days, is not at all religious. However, if you want Jesus to be the reason for your season, then by all means. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem, however, with your whining and bitching about people using “Happy Holidays”. If your faith is so insecure that you snivel at people who use that phrase in place of “Merry Christmas”, then I pity you.
What I don’t want to do with this post is make it seem like I’m downplaying Christmas. I’m not. Christmas is a wonderful time of year, despite the fact that it’s 90% stolen pagan traditions (and nowadays, commercialized consumerism). Heck, I’m not even sure if I agree with “celebrate REASON for the season”. Reason isn’t anything to celebrate, but it is something that should be utilized throughout the whole year. What I do know is that Jesus certainly isn’t the reason for the season, either.
This season, celebrate life. Celebrate friends and family and togetherness. Celebrate love.
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I love you Nealers. You are an open minded atheist, and I respect that. I also respect your respect for other people's opinions/beliefs. While you know that I don't agree with your beliefs, I respect them as your own, and hope to someday to sway you from them :D lol...Happy Holidays!
ReplyDeleteWell said. I, being more of an agnostic atheist, tend to totter on to the "this is really not a subject I think we should discuss" position. You also left out A LOT of stuff to support your blog here. Now, when it comes to free speech...I believe we are all entitled to it, regardless of what it is. I know for a fact, that the reason the posting when as far as it did is because Jaif (wth?) was blatantly rude obviously not realizing that regardless of HIS beliefs, he should've had shown much more respect to your mother and not tried to insult her intelligence.
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ReplyDeleteNeal the burden of proof falls on you in this situation because you made the claim first "Christmas is very much real. The birth of Jesus is not." An because you made that claim first it is on you to supply the evidence you base your claim.But more importantly the reason the burden is on you is because you can prove a negative, examples being "Ronald Reagan is not the President of the United States in 2010" or "The money in my pocket is not real(legal tender in the US),an to prove it I pull monopoly money out my pocket. Normally it would fall on Theist because they make the claim the event did happen,first.But in this particular case it's on you. Also I don't think your mother was saying because you can't prove it, it must have happened ,which would have been a fallacy but was saying both sides can't prove or disprove it, so it's up in the air. But otherwise I agree with this blog entry
ReplyDeleteI feel like my comment came out a little muddled so I would like to try and clarify it. What I meant to say was, That the burden falls on you because you are in fact making the claim. Your claim was "Christmas is very much real. The birth of Jesus is not." You aren't in fact the person rejecting a claim in this particular discussion, but are the one making the claim. You could say that in the grand scheme of things that it was started by someone else, but it was yourself that said it was between you and your mother. Also you said it falls on the other people because you can't prove a negative, which isn't true;examples "Ronald Reagan is not the President of the United States in 2010" or "The money in my pocket is not real(legal tender in the US),an to prove it I pull monopoly money out my pocket." Both are negatives and can be proven. Though it is hard to prove "some" negatives it can in fact be done. So it is on you to supply the evidence you base your claim. The ceramic teapot orbiting Neptune is only an argument if somebody says that because you have no proof, then it must be true. An I don't think your mother was saying because you can't prove it, it must have happened an therefore be true ,which would have been a fallacy(argument from ignorance) but was saying both sides can't prove or disprove it, so it's up in the air. I hope that I clarified my position,an have not made it any more jumbled. Otherwise I thought the blog entry was well written and well thought out an besides the aforementioned disagreements, agree with the rest of the blog.
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ReplyDeleteAlso there is an inaccuracy on the Mithra be being of a virgin he was not, but was born full grown out of a rock. Though most historians would agree that Christians just took over Pagan traditions and thats were Christmas came from. But there is countless others that you could replace with Mithra. First I must say that I am agnostic, An I take the same stance Richard Dawkins does on Jesus, that being there more then likely a historical Jesus did exist but that the stories attributed to him are myths and exaggerations.
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